Canadian Hunter Looking for feedback on Jämthund

[sgillf]

I’m a Canadian hunter looking for a hunting dog to join our young, active family in the next year or two.
I hunt all sorts of game, and so a versatile dog appears to be the best fit. Top breed considerations so far are the Jämthund (Swedish Elkhound) and the Pudelpointer. Our laws our a bit different here (I’m in British Columbia) - and surprisingly, there aren’t too many hunters here that use the dog the way I envision.

When hunting any hooved game, we are required to keep the dog on the leash. From my research, Bandhund hunting in Nordic countries appears to closely match the style of hunting that would work for me here. The problem is that there are very few english language descriptions of Bandhund/ Ledhund hunting available.. As well, I’ve found that New Zealand use a similar hunting approach with their “Indicator dogs” - though they tend to use only pointer dogs, never any of the Spitz/ Laika breeds.

Hunting Background:

The species that I hunt (or would intent to hunt) are:

• Ungulates (Deer, Moose, Elk)
• Predators (Bear, Wolves, Cougars)
• Small Upland game (rabbits, squirrel, grouse)
• Waterfowl (ducks, geese)

Even though I prefer backcountry hunting, I’m able to hunt waterfowl more frequently - though my hunting dog needs for waterfowl are mostly relating to finding birds rather than retrieving them (I hunt farmers fields)

Specific Questions: :

• Does anybody have experience directly with a Pudelpointer and a Jamthund? Any General thoughts?
• Are the dogs completely silent while on the leash? I’ve read they only start to bark once that animal is bayed up.
• How well can a dog be taught to differential between different species? The concern that I have is that the dog will go off running after a rabbit when I’m hunting deer. I think this will be a big challenge, because I plan to hunt so many different species. If I’m hunting bear, I’d love to be able to let the dog go offleash, but only if the dog would not be running after deer or elk

Besides those things, I’d appreciate any other general feedback. We have very passionate and well-informed breeders of both breeds nearby - Though the idea of going to Sweden or Finland to pick up a puppy would appeal to me as well.
Thank you kindly!

[Abana]

It sounds to me as if you need more than one dog if you are to hunt all those species of animals.

Here in Sweden we hunt moose with our jamthund. The hunter aims to train the dog to hunt only moose. You walk the dog in a way so that it can use the wind to pick the scent of the moose then the goal is that the dog barks at the moose in a way that makes the moose stop running. Now the hunter uses the dogs barking to approach the moose and to get a kill shot.
A big difference is that our
It is Noway who are famous for hunting moose with the dog on a leash. The dog picks up the scent of the moose and lead you to where the moose is and you get a shot. the dog race is a grahund (a bit different from jamthund).
A big difference is that the former way of hunting, not having the dog on a leash, uses the barking of the dog and the norweigian way of hunting needs a silent dog. And I believe the reflex of barking is very difficult for a dog to control or to be trained to control. As well as the reflex of chasing after animals is very hard to control. So achieving a dog that can repress his instinct reflexes according to what hunting you want to do...I believe to be very difficult.

If you want to work on getting a very versatile dog (hunting different species when you want and sing different methods). I think it is very difficult but if you want to try I suggest to try dog breeds that are very "trainable" ...and work with a "clicker". Avoid the hunting breeds that are bred for specific behaviour.
Or get several dogs
good luck

Jonas

[birk0323]

Hi Sgillf and welcome to Robsoft

We had a writer, died a couple of years ago who described his hunting with dogs on a leash. ..hmm my english .. anyway it works that way that the dog should show his master when it scents the moose and take him to it and be silent. He used the grahund for this purpose. The grahund wants to bark when it is a dog that normally works that way when it gets up close with the moose so the moose stops with the dog just like Abana wrote.

I am almost sure the book written by this man is in many of Robsoft members bookshelves and I think the way he trained his dog has it´s part in that book. I have the book myself but it is with a friend that is is new to hunting. The book is called " en yrkesjägare berättar" and is written by Karl-Henry Lundin.

[sgillf]

Thank you Jonas and Birk - Many good points you've made.

Birk, I found the book that you mentioned: here. But I'd have to get my language skills up to make use of it! I'm thankful he was able to have documented his knowledge.

This forum really seems like a great place to learn- I'm thankful to have come here.

I did a little more research on the Norwegian elkhounds, and found that the Black Norwegian Elkhound is bred specifically for the leashed style of hunting. I also was put onto the Svensk vit älghund, and was told that they are generally more suitable.
Jonas, I think your point about having to overcome built in reflexes is a good one - And fighting with the instincts bred into a dog is a tough way to go.
Are there not specific lines of Jämthund's that are bred for Band hunting?

You're point about multiple dogs is valid as well... But for me, the priority is Deer, followed by Bear. The other game species are incidental.

[405 WCF]

Check out this dog:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_N ... n_Elkhound" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[börje]

Check out this dog:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_N ... n_Elkhound" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

+1. I think that could be the dog you`re looking for. To get moore info of theese dogs i think you should visit a norwegian forum, because in sweeden an finland we normally use dogs that barks, as jämthund, gråhund etc.
Börje

[nuke]

If you are only going to hunt using a leash a Bavarian or Hanover hound might also be an option?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover_Hound" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Mountain_Hound" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are supposed to be superb trackers and as far as i know they don't bark in pursuit?

If all else fails there is always the labrador retrievers to fall back on

/Markus

[sgillf]

Thank you for the suggestions!

I've looked now at the black Norwegian elkhound...

Do you have any thoughts about the Swedish white elkhound (Svensk Hvit Elghund)?



I've found some interesting statistics that show it is used primarily as a leashed hunter

http://elghundforbundet.no/wp-content/u ... pp-2-1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Sent from my ONE A3000 using Tapatalk

[Villrådig]

I don't think it's a Jämthund you're looking for. I'd either recommend Norsk elghund svart (black Norwegian moose dog), bavaria blood hound or a pointer (vizila or gsp) from NZ.

The white moose dog is more or less a white Jämthund.

[Broder Tuck]

I have an Black Norwegian Elkhound (Norsk Elghund Sort shortened NES) that I use for moose only. I´ve talked to a few that have had NES that´s been very intresseted in Bear. One of them tracked down and killed a wounded bear (dog on leach) and after that the dog prefered bear. So if he was hunting moose and the dog got sence of an bear it led him to the bear instead. I´m not quite sure if I wolud feel comfortable doing that. When you have the dog in a leach it´s no point having a large dog and the Norweigan moosehound black is bred for this kind of hunting. In the other breads it´s in some bloodlines that they bred on this kind of hunting. My dog is completely silence in the aperance of an moose or any other animals. As a puppy she was the coolest puppy ever, when she saw something intressting she just sat down watching.

I also have two english pointers that I use for hunting birds. That´s it. Of course the pointers fetch as well when ever needed. If I see where the birds fall i usually let the dog sit and watch while I´m picking up the birds my self. All becasue of that I don´t want the dogs to have any expetations that they sholud retrive it every time and start running as soon as I fire the gun.

I think it´s hard to combine all the species in one dog, at least if it´s going to work well. It will probelbly hunt the ”wrong” species ones in a while. We had weimaraners earlier that we hunted birds with, they retieved foxes and if I had an leach on they tracked wounded or dead animals like moose and roe deer. Tried to get the old one to follow fresch tracks on an moose that was ok but she didn´t. I think there is a bit of an health problem with weimaraners and they have been to popular by people that doesn´t hunt at all.

If I would use dog to hunt all the species you talking about I wolud have at the very least two different dogs but probably three or four different breds. For only hunting deer and moose with one dog and bear with one or two other shouldn´t be a problem at all. A NES for the moose/deer and something else for the bears.

I appologise for my bad spelling but I hope you understood most of it.

[sgillf]

Thanks Broder & Villrådig,

It's great to hear your experiences. All I really have access to are generic english language descriptions of the breed, and nobody around me has first hand experience.

I think that embracing the natural instincts bred into the dog is the key to success - And your recommendations make sense.

[Levon]

Ever thought about trying some indigenous dog-breed?

just by looking at a Jämthund or Gråhund it is easy to make the assumption that they are somewhat related to alaskan malamutes/husky and so on

Surely the natives must have had a tradition of hunting with dogs?

[sgillf]

Ever thought about trying some indigenous dog-breed?

just by looking at a Jämthund or Gråhund it is easy to make the assumption that they are somewhat related to alaskan malamutes/husky and so on

Surely the natives must have had a tradition of hunting with dogs?

Sadly, there aren't any hunting breeds left - All the dogs that are still around are sled dogs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahltan_Bear_Dog" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- Would have been amazing

[sgillf]

I just wanted to thank you all for the information you've provided.

we ended up with a Swedish White Elkhound - and have been training him on Deer and Moose hides.

We've gone on successful bear hunt, and are soon to head out for his first deer hunt (he went on a deer hunt last year as a puppy, but stayed back at the hut during the hunt).

[norsk]

Awesome that you found a good dog.
And much appreciated that you took the time to report back.
I hate it when we`re left hanging.

[nuke]

Nice, please keep postning updates.

/Markus

[birk0323]

What a nice update of your old post ! Keep posting !

[sgillf]

What a nice update of your old post ! Keep posting !

Thanks! Here's quite a big update... We also have a facebook group for those who hunt with nordic dogs in North America if anyone is interested:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/hunting.with.elkhounds/

20200612_144155 (3).jpg

It's a write-up I did for some friends on how the dog has been for us:

This post was made just after a spring bear hunt in BC.

Forky seems to have been increasingly figuring out hunting styles.

When he is loose, he runs with a steady pace until he gets the scent of an animal. The bears use the roads because the forest is so dense, so working the roads is the best way to locate a bear. Once he gets the scent, then he runs faster, until he gets to the strongest scent point, and will jump off the road and into the bush. I stay close to him on the bicycle, because we have wolves that are scared of people, but would not hesitate to attack a dog. When he trees something, he uses a distinct, frantic sounding bark at high repetition.

Hopefully it isn’t too dense at that point for us to follow! On this hunt, he treed something in the morning, but we were unable to reach where he was, so we had to call him back. Hunting this way is very action packed. I only hunt him loose in the areas where there are lots of bears, and not many deer. We are not permitted to hunt deer and elk with the dogs loose. It seems that he knows not to run off after deer, as I’ve been able to correct him a couple of times. Hunting for bear has required very little training. Once I shot the first bear, he realized we were after them, and goes after them very quickly. I am scared to walk him near camp for bathroom breaks offleash, in case he smells a bear and takes off now.

I also plan to hunt cougar, but I don’t have any hides to train him with. Cougar is very elusive, and you typically won’t see one without the help of a dog. There are cougar in the area, but I think that without training he won’t know to go after it. He walks right past grouse, and completely ignores them. He also doesn’t care about cats in town – but he does catch many mice, crows, and wasps whenever he has the opportunity.

The training on the leash has required much more work. I’ve trained him not to pull, and to calm on the leash when we approach deer. He has led me to places where there are very good game trails that I never knew existed, but often he takes me to places where the deer take refuge, but are too dangerous for me to follow. I will have to work on finding places to hunt that are less steep and dangerous. By the end of last season, he did manage to lead me to a deer, without spooking it away, but I could not shoot it, because it was female. Also, I used this course to help train him on leash https://biggameindicatingdogs.com/

One other thing is that when I raise the gun to shoot, he tucks in besides me on my hip. He did this naturally, but I quite like it because I know where he is and I don't have to worry about him being in the way. You can see this in the picture and video I posted. He stays nice a calm and in that spot.
I was planning a trip to an island that has many many deer this year, in the hopes of getting him some intensive deer training – However the island may be closed to travel due to coronavirus. If I can get him to hunt well for deer on a leash, I will be extremely happy – He will be good on and off leash.

SOME OTHER HUNTING NOTES:

• For duck hunting, he has been good at finding shot ducks that are in the grass. But I’ve never had him swim and retrieve birds (where we hunt there isnt’ a need for that – and my friends have dogs that are better suited for retrieving)

GENERAL TRAINING NOTES:

• He is good at not getting the leash tangled, and I’ve taught him a “back” command to untangle or go around whatever obstacles are there. He’s very aware of it when we walk because of all the bushwacking we’ve don’t.
• I have a “Tssst!” command that means stop/ sit. Over time, he gets sloppy with his adherence to the command, so he needs refreshers. I also have a command for him to look at me and to go in the direction I’m pointing – and he’ generally knows I’m doing it because there’s something interesting that way. It’s very helpful.
• His patience for fetch is very low- He will go and grab a ball 3 times, but on the third time, he’ drop it halfway back to you, and then go and do something else.
• We’ve had to work on him not getting barky/ aggressive when encountering other dogs while on the leash. He was always great off leash with other dogs, but would bark and go crazy when he saw another dog while walking. He would be excited and want to play with them, but being on the leash would frustrate him and then he would start aggressive barking. He has gotten much much better over time, and with work.
• His guardian behaviour at home is excellent. He is alert, and does not bark excessively (except once a week at the garbage trucks). I did work on him quite a bit at the beginning to address unreasonable barking (eg. Someone with a dog walks by the house). I used a water squirt gun if it was bad barking – and he learned really fast what was appropriate and what was not. I think that there is a good chance that he would actually engage an intruder if they were to come in – which is more than I would want.
• He is very fearless. For him, the choice between fight or flight almost always lands on fight. Or, its flight for half a second to get composed and then come back as fight.
• I have to be careful when we’re walking and someone he thinks is unusual comes close. I can tell who he is going to think is a threat. Otherwise, he is extremely friendly with people.
• He is very patient and loving with our two small kids. As he’s gotten older, his desire to play has dropped, but he still goes along with it.
• He doesn’t seem to be an escape artist, but if there is a hole in the fence, or a gate is left open – he will be gone. He covers ground very quickly – and tends to go directly to the dog parts he knows. I’ve put up sensors to make sure that there are no gates left open.
• As a game, we’ve done truffle hunting drills – he’s good at finding them – and I was hoping to go out and get truffles from our forests, but it hasn’t been a priority, and I’ve not ever found any wild truffles (or made a trip for that purpose). Maybe one day.

1177 (2).jpeg

IMG_20200612_160402 (1).jpg

20200612_144155 (3).jpg